tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1318702029180659203.post7866167276144907960..comments2023-04-27T04:07:06.136-07:00Comments on All That To Say...: God, World, ChurchMark Lovehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02540050430568723424noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1318702029180659203.post-16513265616795909922009-01-11T18:49:00.000-08:002009-01-11T18:49:00.000-08:00Thanks, Adrian and welcome.Richard, none of it is ...Thanks, Adrian and welcome.<BR/><BR/>Richard, none of it is off limits. However, the question would be how an adoptionist view would work itself out in relation to God and world.<BR/><BR/>And since I don't begin with that set of assumptions, I'm not sure. I'm not sure, for instance, what meaning sacraments would have, and in turn why you would even need a church. It's not obvious to me. <BR/><BR/>I do think that Trinitarian options make a difference. So, let's see.Mark Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02540050430568723424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1318702029180659203.post-8175498443659129892009-01-11T15:22:00.000-08:002009-01-11T15:22:00.000-08:00Hi Mark,Let me ask the question like this:What fac...Hi Mark,<BR/>Let me ask the question like this:<BR/><BR/>What facet of the missional church is off limits to, let's say, an adoptionist?Richard Beckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06500628452135216019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1318702029180659203.post-55736149327935587312009-01-11T13:58:00.000-08:002009-01-11T13:58:00.000-08:00I'll be fascinated to see where this is going, as ...I'll be fascinated to see where this is going, as I have become very interested in lost meaning within the Trinitarian understanding myself (particularly with reference to and with a developing understanding of Cappadocian thought) and its link to missiology and to objectification. Fascinating stuff that has been the subject of our conversations here lately too (as we try to take the wonderfully esoteric and turn it into the "profoundly practical" and provocative [or pro-vocational]). I'm adding you to my favourites.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1318702029180659203.post-25563853077378701432009-01-11T08:33:00.000-08:002009-01-11T08:33:00.000-08:00RichardHappy to have the push. Let's see if I can ...Richard<BR/><BR/>Happy to have the push. Let's see if I can push back a bit.<BR/><BR/>I agree that the engagement with world is ethical. How could it be otherwise? I would push further and say that it is social. It is a certain kind of social enactment, a deeply embedded social enactment, which is a larger category than just ethics. And this is precisely what the Trinitarian discusion is about these days.<BR/><BR/>Fact is, the missionaries of 17th-19th centuries took the golden rule with them and undoubtedly taught it to their converts. But there was a larger frame in which that rule was enacted, an imperial/colonial one. And there was a view of God that stood behind that.<BR/><BR/>I wonder if the golden rule is as neutral as you suggest. I wonder, in other words, if the golden rule is immune from the perspective of the user. Words like love, neighbor, yourself have some wiggle room and it might very well matter if you bring a Trinitarian, adoptionist, or humanist perspective. That would be interesting to determine. And I suspect that a decision to define the church-world relationship beginning with a theory-less ethics (as you seem to be using that term) is a pretty significant theological grab.<BR/><BR/>I guess I'm not sure how you are drawing the line between theological and ethical. Are you viewing theology as a purely mental exercise? This is not an unusual view, the effect of the Western psychological tradition which is often associated with Augustine's trinitarian views (to round out the irony). Anyway, I'd need to hear more about how you think ethics is related to theology. <BR/><BR/>I wonder also if a certain kind of Trinitarianism is lurking as the concern of your comments. The thing with trinitarian theology is that is has been associated with what is referred to as the immanent Trinity, that is speculation about God's inner life as Father, Son, and Spirit, which we have little access to. It features a certain kind of ontology, one we learned from the Greeks, one that pushes ontology into essentials/accidents and therefore abstract characteristics. <BR/><BR/>This removed Trinity from discussions about ethics, made it seemingly irrelevant, and laid it open to the withering contempt of Enlightenment and post-Enlightenment theologians and philosophers. This did not, however, make it a-ethical. It was still pulling a lot of strings. <BR/><BR/>But if, like Moltmann, you begin your trinitarian theology in the Garden of Gethsemane, then you are immediately into ethics, social location and theodicy. But I'm ahead of myself.<BR/><BR/>So, I may not have hit on any of your curiosities. Let's see.Mark Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02540050430568723424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1318702029180659203.post-11112690444259573952009-01-11T06:57:00.000-08:002009-01-11T06:57:00.000-08:00Hi Mark,I'm going to be asking you some things her...Hi Mark,<BR/>I'm going to be asking you some things here, but not in an attacking way. My tone here is curious.<BR/><BR/>First, I agree with you about the Trinity as the most hospitable location to do theology, particularly missional theology. I start there myself.<BR/><BR/>However...<BR/><BR/>I start from that location because, for a variety of reasons, I like the view of God it provides. However, I tend to think people overreach regarding the doctrine's importance. Basically, I think the interface between Church and World, at root, is an ethical interface. Not a theological one. The Golden Rule and the Parable of the Good Samaritan seem in force regardless as to if you are a Trinitarian or and adoptionist or just a plane old humanist. The relevant issue is if you do or do not follow the <I>Imitatio Christi</I>.<BR/><BR/>True, various theological formulations might provide different theological backdrops or warrants for the <I>Imitatio Christi</I>, and those are very important, but at the end of the day the connection isn't a necessary one between Trinitarianism and the <I>Imitatio Christi</I>. And if it isn't necessary then I consider it one among many formulations one might adopt.Richard Beckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06500628452135216019noreply@blogger.com